I’m going to dip my toes into the waters of politics for a moment, but only tangentially, to discuss something that’s been bothering me about Mark Foley’s Instant Messages to his congressional page.
Mark Foley has been referred to as a pedophile and a predator because he was engaging in sexually explicit conversation with a male 16 year old, however, it seems like every other year we hear a story about a 15 year old student who is engaged in some type of relationship with his older, female teacher and all of a sudden he becomes the luckiest boy in the world for being about to have “had sex” with a woman.
What the motherfucking hell is that all about?
If we make these distinctions based on the ages and genders of the victim and the predator we are living in a pretty fucked-up society. Apparently the system works like this:
young woman + boy = lucky kid
young woman + girl = kill the pervert
old woman + boy = kill the pervert
old woman + girl = kill the pervert
young man + boy = kill the pervert
young man + girl = kill the pervert
old man + boy = kill the pervert
old man + girl = kill the pervert
Why is it permissible for a younger woman to sexually molest and or assault a pre-teen? Is it because people remember what it’s like to be 13 and horny for anything? Maybe, but it certainly doesn’t make it right. A 13 year old cannot consent in a relationship like that. There are too many issues of authority, power, and control for a 13 year old to make that type of decision. And if it’s fine for a young woman to “seduce” a boy of 13, or 15, or 16, why is it not okay for a young man to “seduce” a boy of 13, or 15, or 16?
Would this be okay in your mind if Mark Foley was a 52 year old female? What if Mark Foley was a 25 year old female? What if the page was a 16 year old girl, would it be okay then?
I hate this double-standard. People who prey on kids should be treated the same way regardless of age, or gender, so either stop demonizing Mark Foley, or step the fuck up the next time somebody defends sexual predation by excusing it as some sort of “lucky” sexual dalliance.
Had never partaken in the sweet fruit of a GILF? Don’t make a mom joke. It would be too easy. Although I agree that the law should be blind to gender when convicting matters such as this, but often double standards exist in our society because men and women are actually different. Had I bagged a fifty year old chick when I was 15, I would most likely not feel like a victim - not when I was 15, not now, not when I’m fifty. If one never feels as though they were a victim, are they a victim? To what degree are these distinctions societal themselves? “18” only means something because society has decided to make it so. Saying ‘double-standards’ about societal standards, when applied to society’s judgment of its own societal standards can get rather muddled, ethically. It isn’t as though there is a god or something who declared from heaven what is right or wrong.
What I don’t understand is why a 15 year old can be tried as an adult for murder, held fully accountable for his/her actions, but a fifteen year old is never held accountable for his/her sexual actions. 15 year olds screaming victim is more often bullshit than we like to admit in this society. Not that a 15 year old can’t be a victim - not that a 19 year old can’t be a victim - not that a 35 year old, etc.
Of course, I observe the old Muslim “half your age plus seven” rule, so none of this really applies to me. Actually, I don’t actually have sex anyway, so again, this is totally not my argument.
Anyone + Monkey = kill the pervert
I don’t remember any of those young teachers getting away with raping their students… while some people might talk a lot about how they wish their teachers in middle school would’ve wanted to bang them, it’s not like the judge said, “Oooh, you go boy, nail that teacher!”
eebmore- Certainly some 16 year olds may be mature enough to decide that they want to engage in a relationship with someone who is 10 or more years their senior. But, this does not take in to account the power that a senator has over a page. It’s because of this power issue that this situation is different than a murder case.
Monkey- asexuality is the name of your game, eh?
Bekah- It’s not about whether or not people are convicted of their crimes. It’s the fact that in the court of public opinion one crime doesn’t carry the same weight as the rest. So if you go to a parent or teacher to say that you’re being molested, you might be told to shut-up and enjoy what you’re getting.
correct, which is, in part, why society is judging him so harshly. I thought the argument was about why society was so soft in their judgment of women guilty of statutory rape.
Society judges women and men differently in these matters because in sex, our roles are so divergent. We reserve a harsher societal judgment of men, as men typically are the sexual aggressor.
Legally, of course, these women are subject to the same laws, and generally speaking, the law has used the same guidelines in their convictions. But as a society, we are softer on them partially because we perceive their victims as not being victims at all. Sorry if this makes me sound like a goon, but if as a 15 year old, if one of my hot twenty-something female teachers opted to have sex with me, I would not feel like a victim. I would have been happy. If such a situation occurred, would I have been a victim? Now, if the teacher was male, society would hold a harsher judgment of him, partially because men are generally the sexual aggressors who create sexual victims, and partially because male sexual aggression is a huge prevalent problem in our society… AS MEN ARE TYPICALLY THE AGGRESSORS.
i think men are only seen as the aggressors. true many men are very much aggressors, but i think that may simply be more a “i’m a man” mentality which is helped along with old social “norms”. perhaps it’s more that men are supposed to be protectors and to deviate from that by harming is such a slap in the face to our society. as opposed to women who are more often seen as mothers/whores so for them to deviate seems more a maternal instinct or as “well, women are sexual tools anyway” type of view. does that make any sense?
either way.
i agree with monkey.
eebmore- Well, one the one hand, you as a 15 year old can make the decision about what you find hot, and what you don’t find hot, but the power the teacher has over you still exists, and because of that the situation becomes more difficult.
You are correct though, men are the sexual aggressors in something like 90 percent of all crimes of sexual violence (and just regular type violence as well), however the media loves to portray a good “love” story about the romance gone wrong between a teacher and the young student. That angle is what’s making it so easy for the pundits to say, “Oh, he was just getting his rocks off, it’s the democrats fault anyway.”
I feel better that someone has my back now. :)
My prior rant.
Wait a second. How’d this happen? I went in search of necrophilial zombie teabaggings and ended up at the Family Research Council website.
Hink- This is hardly the Family fucking Research Council. Now grab a hot dog and join the hodown.
I think too much is made of the media making our minds for us. Media reflects society, it doesn’t define society. I can think of only one instance where the media paid lip service to such a story being potentially an example of true love gone haywire - and they’re married now. And even in that example, the media was justifiably harsh on her for the first 5 years of their relationship. It wasn’t until he was approaching adulthood that the media began to say “hmmm, their is something different about this story.” (personally - I still think she is fucking crazy.)
Usually, these stories reflect our own perceptions. “Dang, that teacher is HOTTTT!” etc. I’m willing to acknowledge that, in theory, such situations could possibly be examples of women abusing power to take advantage of children/adolescents/etc., but it just doesn’t fit into human sexual dynamics in the same way it does when men are the aggressors. Yes, we’ve identified a societal double standard; but societal double standards generally make sense when we’re talking about human sexual dynamics. I am not convinced that these are examples of males being “abused” by predatory behavior on the part of females. I can’t say I see the point of erasing a societal double standard when it makes sense applied to something as unequal as human sexuality (… and for the record, I’m not saying men have all the power. In coupling, women have most of the power. Sexually, women possess free will. We do not. We’re just walking penises).
For some reason I find it hard to get as worked up about this, or any case (male or female agressor), as you all. What I do care about in the Foley case is the cruel irony of his prominent role in PROTECTING youth from victimization and internet predation. That and how he had been projecting the principled Republican front, and that Republican leadership may have known about this stuff and tried to hide it to protect their precious House majority. WTF? How do people like this get elected?
Holy shit, a serious post? Are you kidding me?
Actually, I agree with you. It’s a ridiculous double standard.
I cannot, cannot, CANNOT stress enough that the plural of penis is “penes.”
i think eebmore is right- that sixteen year old boy knew more than we’re giving him credit for.
we all know what it’s like to be sixteen, and we all know that we test boundaries, explore and experiment. that kid can choose some things, but the adult, regardless of gender, should be adult enough to protect that child. experimentation with peers is one thing, this is another.
a sixteen year old may be interested in sex, but he or she is not fully capable of understanding the implications there of.
actually, in the foley case - i think mr. sixteen was pretty creeped out by the IMs - much in the same way I feel creeped out by ACW’s IMs.
“and then what?… and then what?” STOP FISHING YOU PERV!!!!
CBK, I call that the Michael Jackson Variable. People may find this backwards of me, but I don’t trust any male who is too attached to children. Passionate feelings about children that are not yours… or your nieces and nephews… lead to, err, passionate feelings towards children. THAT guy should be watched closely.
Yeah, i’s double standards because the main group that is crucifying Foley is his own party. If he was a democrat, all he would have to do is come out like McGreevey did, say he’s gay and that’s that. Story over.
Republicans have madea big mess of this. They should have told him to sit pat. Now they’re giving up a seat and essentially admitting that Foley did something illegal, which he probably didn’t.
He didn’t lie under oath like Bill Clinton did, and the boy was NOT underage according to the laws of the District of Columbia, where age of consent is 16. So everybody calm down and relax.
mokiejovis - “Penises” is another plural of the word penis.
But he may have violated *federal* internet child enticement laws - state age-of-consent issues won’t save you if there’s a federal law built in to curtail pervo-activity (e.g., the Mann Act).
George- your comment is so dumb on so many levels.
Bekah- Yes, but, “penes” is better.
Bliss- Word, bringin’ the law like you’re a lawyer.
ACW - I think “penes” looks stupid.
Just say it. Say “penes”. It’s better.
I am totally with you on this. People seem to think that it wouldn’t screw up a 13 year old boy to have sex with an older woman. I don’t think they realize how screwed up that really is. Thanks for preachin the good word.
I can’t say penes without feeling like I’m ordering pasta.
AMEN!! I agree and am behind you 150%.